Ah, and here we have it! Israeli officials state explicit genocidal intent, explicit dehumanization (“they are human animals and will be treated accordingly”), have an explicitly racially supremacist ideology and intent to annex all of Palestine and maintain a Jewis-majority nation, they impose a total blockade on a captive civilian population in Gaza and bomb it to rubble over the course of years while continuing to slowly annex the West Bank and expel the Palestinian population, and that’s just “collateral damage”. But the Soviets having a famine in all the major grain producing areas is a full-on genocide comparable with the Holocaust.
I am not weighing into Holdomor. But you are equating the Gaza tragedy to the targeting and rounding up of Jews in Europe for their ethnicity and exterminating them en-masse, not in combat. ⅔ of the population.
Yes there are evil cunts in the current Jewish government who make explicit statements (Ben-Gvir and Smotrich especially).
But you do not want to acknowledge that the banned phrases in Queensland were explicit genocidal calls by PLO and Hamas… not just by individuals as in Israel’s case. Of course Israel needs to remain a Jewish majority in the light of that.
The Germans did not start off the Holocaust by immediately rounding up and exterminating the Jews. They started through deportations (check), then by mass killings in the areas they took control of through conquest (check, though with some qualifiers), and then finally only settled on extermination in death camps. Israel is likely going to pass a law calling for mandatory execution of all “terrorists”, which in Israeli rhetoric means all Palestinians. They’re very far along on the road!
You seem to be taking the liberal Zionist position that a democratic Israel can exist alongside a penned-in Palestine, a captive nation with limited rights where people exist as noncitizens (but aren’t exterminated, as the right-wing Zionists support). I am telling you that is a dead ideology, and it was always self-contradictory in the first place. It’s a relic from a time when a country could be a “free democracy”, but racially discriminate against citizens or colonial subjects. When black Americans couldn’t vote, when “democratic” France could keep Algerians or a dozen other nationalities as colonial subjects in their own countries, or when South Africa could be a democracy for the white minority and an occupying power for its black residents. It is a fundamental contradiction to believe in rights for one group but not another (for whatever, I’m sure, complex and nuanced reasons), and so the tendency just going all the way into racial supremacy as the right-wing Zionists have done.
You’re going to have to take a serious look at what’s happening, as you’re being led along into a very dark place. I’m sure you’re not a racial supremacist and your concerns are for the safety of the Jewish people, but that isn’t what the Zionist project is, and the liberal position is no longer tenable. What will you tell yourself when you look back and find that you supported a genocide?
Thank you for finally getting this discussion onto a good faith, intellectual footing.
Dunno enough about Nazi Germany to comment on those points.
The “open air prison” of Gaza was due to border controls stopping weapons shipments as Hamas and PIJ kept attacking Israel.
If the attacks stopped then I imagine the borders would have been relaxed to previous levels.
Paradoxically the tedious border checks led to Gazans merchants funding tunnels merely for civilian supplies. Israel would have done well to have funded those checks better to speed them up and remove this incentive.
Israel didn’t expect so extensive a tunnel network. Hamas expected other Arab countries to rally to their war like in 1967. Both sides miscalculated resulting in this tragic spiral (although I suspect the Israel right wing hoped it would spiral).
Israel also would have done well to have not even counterattacked in the name of retribution. They could have instead investigated how the leadership failed in their border security and jumped straight to a hostage/prisoner exchange.
To this day however Hamas are breaching the peace by not surrendering arms and continuing attacks. A large IDF retaliation is unfortunately coming soon.
Ah, and here we have it! Israeli officials state explicit genocidal intent, explicit dehumanization (“they are human animals and will be treated accordingly”), have an explicitly racially supremacist ideology and intent to annex all of Palestine and maintain a Jewis-majority nation, they impose a total blockade on a captive civilian population in Gaza and bomb it to rubble over the course of years while continuing to slowly annex the West Bank and expel the Palestinian population, and that’s just “collateral damage”. But the Soviets having a famine in all the major grain producing areas is a full-on genocide comparable with the Holocaust.
I am not weighing into Holdomor. But you are equating the Gaza tragedy to the targeting and rounding up of Jews in Europe for their ethnicity and exterminating them en-masse, not in combat. ⅔ of the population.
Yes there are evil cunts in the current Jewish government who make explicit statements (Ben-Gvir and Smotrich especially).
But you do not want to acknowledge that the banned phrases in Queensland were explicit genocidal calls by PLO and Hamas… not just by individuals as in Israel’s case. Of course Israel needs to remain a Jewish majority in the light of that.
The Germans did not start off the Holocaust by immediately rounding up and exterminating the Jews. They started through deportations (check), then by mass killings in the areas they took control of through conquest (check, though with some qualifiers), and then finally only settled on extermination in death camps. Israel is likely going to pass a law calling for mandatory execution of all “terrorists”, which in Israeli rhetoric means all Palestinians. They’re very far along on the road!
You seem to be taking the liberal Zionist position that a democratic Israel can exist alongside a penned-in Palestine, a captive nation with limited rights where people exist as noncitizens (but aren’t exterminated, as the right-wing Zionists support). I am telling you that is a dead ideology, and it was always self-contradictory in the first place. It’s a relic from a time when a country could be a “free democracy”, but racially discriminate against citizens or colonial subjects. When black Americans couldn’t vote, when “democratic” France could keep Algerians or a dozen other nationalities as colonial subjects in their own countries, or when South Africa could be a democracy for the white minority and an occupying power for its black residents. It is a fundamental contradiction to believe in rights for one group but not another (for whatever, I’m sure, complex and nuanced reasons), and so the tendency just going all the way into racial supremacy as the right-wing Zionists have done.
You’re going to have to take a serious look at what’s happening, as you’re being led along into a very dark place. I’m sure you’re not a racial supremacist and your concerns are for the safety of the Jewish people, but that isn’t what the Zionist project is, and the liberal position is no longer tenable. What will you tell yourself when you look back and find that you supported a genocide?
Thank you for finally getting this discussion onto a good faith, intellectual footing.
Dunno enough about Nazi Germany to comment on those points.
The “open air prison” of Gaza was due to border controls stopping weapons shipments as Hamas and PIJ kept attacking Israel.
If the attacks stopped then I imagine the borders would have been relaxed to previous levels.
Paradoxically the tedious border checks led to Gazans merchants funding tunnels merely for civilian supplies. Israel would have done well to have funded those checks better to speed them up and remove this incentive.
Israel didn’t expect so extensive a tunnel network. Hamas expected other Arab countries to rally to their war like in 1967. Both sides miscalculated resulting in this tragic spiral (although I suspect the Israel right wing hoped it would spiral).
Israel also would have done well to have not even counterattacked in the name of retribution. They could have instead investigated how the leadership failed in their border security and jumped straight to a hostage/prisoner exchange.
To this day however Hamas are breaching the peace by not surrendering arms and continuing attacks. A large IDF retaliation is unfortunately coming soon.