Mills didn’t live through fucking First and Second World War.
Less well known is the paradox of tolerance : Unlimited tolerance must lead
to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to
those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society
against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed,
and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance,
that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies ; as
long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check
by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most imwise. But we
should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force ; for it may
easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational
argument, but begin by denouncing all argument ; they may forbid their
followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach
them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should
therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.
We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself out-
side the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution
as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or
to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.
Popper, Karl R.
The Open Society and Its Enemies: Volume 1, The Spell of Plato. Routledge, 1945
Allowing a MAGA forum to coexist here isn’t simply allowing “differing opinions” - their “opinion” is known, and it invariably moves us up the rungs on the ladder toward genocide. I say this as someone whose own parents are in the MAGA cult: defederate. Don’t allow that ideology to fester in your community. Have individual discussions with the people in your own life to pull them back from the brink, if you feel safe doing so, but don’t allow that growth in the petri dish that is your collective, or you will wake up with an infection. Set boundaries or get taken over.
This is a good point. At first I was thinking it is good to know what is going on and hear what they have to say, but now I think this is a stronger arguement. I just really thought we should not discriminate based on differences, but in this case I think maybe we should defend our community health, which actually will decrease if we do not defederate. On the other hand, knowing what is going on is invaluable, but if we wanted to see a bunch of toxic shitty rage bait, we could just go to r/conservative. Anyways, not sure this impacts my instance, but it will surely come up if the instance is legitimate.
Yeah, maybe you should open your eyes and see what trans people and immigrants in this country see: the clear escalation towards genocide both in their rhetoric, and in public policy aimed at separation and detention of the target groups.
I’m sorry, this sort of hysteria and screaming genocide is partially why people discredit the Left even when there are actual, real problems.
Is the treatment of illegal immigrants under Maga awful? Absolutely. But screaming genocide because it’s the worst thing you know, well goddamn, now we just sound dumb. This ain’t moving us to a place where we can figure things out. (You probably can’t have everyone in the world who wants to go to America in America. Conversely, they are still humans and even if they are illegally in the country, sending them to an El Salvadorean prison is heinous.) If we aren’t there to make the reasonable case, no one makes it.
It’s like how the right complains that Christianity is under attack etc and they are persecuted for it. Is that true? No and it makes them sound insane. Are there actual arenas wherein things are harder or tricky for religious folks? Sure! (If you believe the Pope and feel abortion is murder, pretty hard to reconcile that with funding abortion etc.)
I will just leave you with the fact that the Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention has issued a warning for the US, and alsp has issued a particular warning for trans people in the US. If you’re familiar with the stages of genocide, that may also help you to see clearly what is going on.
Whether you believe me or think I’m hysterical, i will still be preparing to leave this country at a moment’s notice and be prepared to submit an asylum claim upon arrival in Canada. I don’t think it gets more real than that.
Admittedly, the Lemkin institute is being pursued in court for misusing the Lemkin name and fragrant misuse of the word genocide. (They are also claiming there’s now a genocide red alert in the UK for trans people.)
You could cite multiple groups like the heritage foundation etc that would strenuously deny anything of the sort is taking place.
I could certainly cite the Heritage Foundation, who are currently pushing for the FBI to define all transgender people as terrorists and lock us all up. That would definitely destroy any argument that anybody’s trying to do a Genocide here, right?
I’m not calling the paradox (or the constitution) silly, I’m saying they don’t apply in this scenario.
From the snippet above:
I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies ; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most imwise
But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force ; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument ; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.
In other words, yeah, if that instance starts getting people to be assholes to everyone etc, sure, tolerance does not mean we should let them do so here, that’s the point of the paradox. But, as the author states, suppressing them without cause etc would be most foolish. Far better to try and discuss with rational argument first before resorting to “well, we don’t want to talk to you because my MAGA uncle is a dick.”
Mills didn’t live through fucking First and Second World War.
Popper, Karl R. The Open Society and Its Enemies: Volume 1, The Spell of Plato. Routledge, 1945
Allowing people to hear different opinions is not unlimited tolerance.
Allowing a MAGA forum to coexist here isn’t simply allowing “differing opinions” - their “opinion” is known, and it invariably moves us up the rungs on the ladder toward genocide. I say this as someone whose own parents are in the MAGA cult: defederate. Don’t allow that ideology to fester in your community. Have individual discussions with the people in your own life to pull them back from the brink, if you feel safe doing so, but don’t allow that growth in the petri dish that is your collective, or you will wake up with an infection. Set boundaries or get taken over.
This is a good point. At first I was thinking it is good to know what is going on and hear what they have to say, but now I think this is a stronger arguement. I just really thought we should not discriminate based on differences, but in this case I think maybe we should defend our community health, which actually will decrease if we do not defederate. On the other hand, knowing what is going on is invaluable, but if we wanted to see a bunch of toxic shitty rage bait, we could just go to r/conservative. Anyways, not sure this impacts my instance, but it will surely come up if the instance is legitimate.
Wow, that is a damn crazy assertion. And exactly why more discussion is a good thing.
Yeah, maybe you should open your eyes and see what trans people and immigrants in this country see: the clear escalation towards genocide both in their rhetoric, and in public policy aimed at separation and detention of the target groups.
I’m sorry, this sort of hysteria and screaming genocide is partially why people discredit the Left even when there are actual, real problems.
Is the treatment of illegal immigrants under Maga awful? Absolutely. But screaming genocide because it’s the worst thing you know, well goddamn, now we just sound dumb. This ain’t moving us to a place where we can figure things out. (You probably can’t have everyone in the world who wants to go to America in America. Conversely, they are still humans and even if they are illegally in the country, sending them to an El Salvadorean prison is heinous.) If we aren’t there to make the reasonable case, no one makes it.
It’s like how the right complains that Christianity is under attack etc and they are persecuted for it. Is that true? No and it makes them sound insane. Are there actual arenas wherein things are harder or tricky for religious folks? Sure! (If you believe the Pope and feel abortion is murder, pretty hard to reconcile that with funding abortion etc.)
I will just leave you with the fact that the Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention has issued a warning for the US, and alsp has issued a particular warning for trans people in the US. If you’re familiar with the stages of genocide, that may also help you to see clearly what is going on.
Whether you believe me or think I’m hysterical, i will still be preparing to leave this country at a moment’s notice and be prepared to submit an asylum claim upon arrival in Canada. I don’t think it gets more real than that.
Admittedly, the Lemkin institute is being pursued in court for misusing the Lemkin name and fragrant misuse of the word genocide. (They are also claiming there’s now a genocide red alert in the UK for trans people.)
You could cite multiple groups like the heritage foundation etc that would strenuously deny anything of the sort is taking place.
I could certainly cite the Heritage Foundation, who are currently pushing for the FBI to define all transgender people as terrorists and lock us all up. That would definitely destroy any argument that anybody’s trying to do a Genocide here, right?
Is that the only thing you can rebut out of all of that?
It is the only relevant part.
Are these the kind of meaningful debates you have with MAGA?
Yeah, I get similarly silly stuff from the right, where they have readnheard of something but don’t quite understand how it applies, eg:
“I guess you haven’t read the Constitution!”
“Free speech is about government, not public outcry.”
Such is life.
What’s silly about the paradox of intolerance? Why does it not apply to defederating here? I don’t grasp it’s purported lack of relevance.
You are misunderstanding.
I’m not calling the paradox (or the constitution) silly, I’m saying they don’t apply in this scenario.
From the snippet above:
In other words, yeah, if that instance starts getting people to be assholes to everyone etc, sure, tolerance does not mean we should let them do so here, that’s the point of the paradox. But, as the author states, suppressing them without cause etc would be most foolish. Far better to try and discuss with rational argument first before resorting to “well, we don’t want to talk to you because my MAGA uncle is a dick.”
I disagree with you on this and various other points you’ve made here, but I appreciate you taking the time to elaborate your viewpoint.