Replying as an actual trans woman here. Claiming that both sides are equally valid or have equal issues is disingenuous. When one side is simply asking to be allowed to exist equally with everyone else and the other side is using the courts to take away the rights of the other that is not equal. When one side is advocating for what is already the middle ie. equal treatment and respect for all. You cannot equate them as equally problematic and you cannot compromise.
As an unrelated but clear example of this the half way point between equality for all and slavery is segregation / apartheid.
I’m sure you would agree that equating the want for equal freedom and the want to enslave others as equal is* problematic. This is a clear example of what I’m trying to convey here.
I just want to live my life, trans people like me just want to live our lives as who we are with equal respect for everyone. Sadly there are a lot of people in this world who would rather see me and others like me as erased, dead and gone.
I’m sure you can understand that it can get very difficult to tolerate mistakes and confusion from others sometimes considering how much our very right to exist has come under constant and severe attack at a government and court level.
We are only human same as you same as everyone else. We’re not saints we don’t have infinite patience and it is extremely stressful to deal with on a daily basis.
So please do not equate our frustration and exhaustion as equally problematic to the hatred and wrath of those who want to erase our very existence.
There weren’t any rights necessarily taken away- just the invalidation of special privileges that were granted. The trans movement doesn’t often advocate for equal treatment, but special privileges or considerations.
The anti-apartheid wanted equal rights. They wanted equal employment and pay with white people. Trans people get the same rights to employment, pay, etc, as everybody else. What’s being advocated for is state-funded cosmetic surgery and in many cases, access to sports, bathrooms and in some cases, changing rooms.
I agree that claiming “trans people shouldn’t be allowed to work in law/health/teaching because they’re trans” isn’t acceptable at all. They should be afforded the same dignity and right to life as everybody else. I support and would advocate for your right to exist. But the special considerations should be able to be debated without comparing someone to a racist, like you just did. Which is why I feel disillusioned towards the movement.
It’s probably just a me thing- when it comes to politics, I like respect and civil discourse. I dislike the “us vs them” bs that’s being perpetuated.
I literally didn’t compare you to a racist. I explicitly said it was an unrelated example that I used to clearly explain my point. Also I said a couple times that I assumed your position on the matter used in that example was not that of a racist.
Please don’t misconstrue my words to support your argument against my right to be able to use changing rooms etc that match my gender. I’m going to be clear here I hope that you simply misunderstood what I wrote. That is what I am assuming.
I don’t think me wanting to use women’s change rooms / bathrooms counts a “special consideration” as you put it. I am a woman so I should be allowed to use them same as every other woman. That is equal treatment. That is what trans people want. I as a woman do not want to be forced into men’s spaces where I am placed at risk of harassment / assault.
If you are going to argue that I should not be given equal treatment after considering my words then I can only assume that you do not think of me as a woman. If and only if you continue to argue your same point. There would be no other way for it to be understood in that case. If you don’t argue that point further then please disregard this section.
If you want to protect women then you must include trans WOMEN as well as we are women. If you want to support my right to exist then please support my right to not be forced into men’s spaces where I, a woman, would be at risk of danger.
I should be allowed to use the same as every other woman
Except you aren’t the same as every other woman.
As a woman I do not want to be forced into men’s spaces where I am placed at risk of harassment / assault
And other women wouldn’t want to be placed at risk of harassment or assault either by anybody coming in claiming to be a woman. I am a smaller guy, should I be able to use the women’s because I am scared of big men?
You could use a disabled and unisex single unit bathroom/changing room?
Ok so by claiming that trans women having the equal right to access women’s spaces goes against cis women’s rights you are implying that trans women are the danger. We are not. Also, if a man wants to hurt women in women’s spaces a sign on a door isn’t going to stop him. There is no need for a man to pretend to be a woman to be able to hurt women. They can just do it.
Gendered washrooms etc are the norm, non gendered spaces are not always available. Do you expect a trans woman to use the men’s spaces which puts us at higher risk of danger?
Ultimately the crux of your argument comes down to one simple yes or no question.
Replying as an actual trans woman here. Claiming that both sides are equally valid or have equal issues is disingenuous. When one side is simply asking to be allowed to exist equally with everyone else and the other side is using the courts to take away the rights of the other that is not equal. When one side is advocating for what is already the middle ie. equal treatment and respect for all. You cannot equate them as equally problematic and you cannot compromise.
As an unrelated but clear example of this the half way point between equality for all and slavery is segregation / apartheid.
I’m sure you would agree that equating the want for equal freedom and the want to enslave others as equal is* problematic. This is a clear example of what I’m trying to convey here.
I just want to live my life, trans people like me just want to live our lives as who we are with equal respect for everyone. Sadly there are a lot of people in this world who would rather see me and others like me as erased, dead and gone. I’m sure you can understand that it can get very difficult to tolerate mistakes and confusion from others sometimes considering how much our very right to exist has come under constant and severe attack at a government and court level.
We are only human same as you same as everyone else. We’re not saints we don’t have infinite patience and it is extremely stressful to deal with on a daily basis.
So please do not equate our frustration and exhaustion as equally problematic to the hatred and wrath of those who want to erase our very existence.
There weren’t any rights necessarily taken away- just the invalidation of special privileges that were granted. The trans movement doesn’t often advocate for equal treatment, but special privileges or considerations.
The anti-apartheid wanted equal rights. They wanted equal employment and pay with white people. Trans people get the same rights to employment, pay, etc, as everybody else. What’s being advocated for is state-funded cosmetic surgery and in many cases, access to sports, bathrooms and in some cases, changing rooms.
I agree that claiming “trans people shouldn’t be allowed to work in law/health/teaching because they’re trans” isn’t acceptable at all. They should be afforded the same dignity and right to life as everybody else. I support and would advocate for your right to exist. But the special considerations should be able to be debated without comparing someone to a racist, like you just did. Which is why I feel disillusioned towards the movement.
It’s probably just a me thing- when it comes to politics, I like respect and civil discourse. I dislike the “us vs them” bs that’s being perpetuated.
I literally didn’t compare you to a racist. I explicitly said it was an unrelated example that I used to clearly explain my point. Also I said a couple times that I assumed your position on the matter used in that example was not that of a racist.
Please don’t misconstrue my words to support your argument against my right to be able to use changing rooms etc that match my gender. I’m going to be clear here I hope that you simply misunderstood what I wrote. That is what I am assuming.
I don’t think me wanting to use women’s change rooms / bathrooms counts a “special consideration” as you put it. I am a woman so I should be allowed to use them same as every other woman. That is equal treatment. That is what trans people want. I as a woman do not want to be forced into men’s spaces where I am placed at risk of harassment / assault.
If you are going to argue that I should not be given equal treatment after considering my words then I can only assume that you do not think of me as a woman. If and only if you continue to argue your same point. There would be no other way for it to be understood in that case. If you don’t argue that point further then please disregard this section.
If you want to protect women then you must include trans WOMEN as well as we are women. If you want to support my right to exist then please support my right to not be forced into men’s spaces where I, a woman, would be at risk of danger.
Except you aren’t the same as every other woman.
And other women wouldn’t want to be placed at risk of harassment or assault either by anybody coming in claiming to be a woman. I am a smaller guy, should I be able to use the women’s because I am scared of big men?
You could use a disabled and unisex single unit bathroom/changing room?
Ok so by claiming that trans women having the equal right to access women’s spaces goes against cis women’s rights you are implying that trans women are the danger. We are not. Also, if a man wants to hurt women in women’s spaces a sign on a door isn’t going to stop him. There is no need for a man to pretend to be a woman to be able to hurt women. They can just do it.
Gendered washrooms etc are the norm, non gendered spaces are not always available. Do you expect a trans woman to use the men’s spaces which puts us at higher risk of danger?
Ultimately the crux of your argument comes down to one simple yes or no question.
Do you believe that trans women are women?
I haven’t found a place that hasn’t had a non gendered space. Disabled bathrooms are a legal requirement in most places.
You didn’t answer the question. Do you believe that trans women are women, yes or no ?
Still figuring that one out. The Supreme Court says “no”, other people say yes. I don’t see a clear-cut answer to the question.
The vast majority of science going back to pre-WWII says the answer is yes.
Evidence through link.
https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/
Knowing now that the scientific consensus is yes, do you believe that trans women are women?