I’m not sure that in a society that isn’t homophobic and transphobic that this would be as much of a problem as we think. Would it be acceptable to be upset if the girl you were hooking up with took off her clothes and you find out she had some other kind of situation she didn’t disclose? I can imagine many different situations, like:
breasts are smaller than expected because the bra was padded
one or more breasts were removed due to cancer
ambiguous or otherwise “not normal” genitalia for whatever reason (e.g. there are women with multiple vaginas, for example, or women with very large clits, etc.)
scars, burns, or other marks on the body that you didn’t expect
You can think of more examples I’m sure. If you really think a trans woman is a woman, I don’t think their genitals being in one configuration is that different than these sorts of examples - it’s just another unexpected thing.
I think part of what makes it feel like a violation, esp. to so many cis straight men, is that the attitudes about genitals are so essentialized, it’s often hard for a cis straight man (and people in general) to think the penis isn’t “male” at least in some sense, and so on a trans woman a penis requires special consent and disclosure that we might not demand of other conditions.
Should someone feel violated if anything else is not what they expected on a woman’s body? Why is being trans special or different?
All that said, we do live in a society - so disclosing seems like a good idea for so many reasons. My questions aren’t meant to lead people to take risks, but to create clarity about why these practices of disclosure are necessary in the first place.
I wouldn’t feel violated if the person I was hitting on turned out to have a dick, but I wouldn’t have interest in having sex with that person because well I don’t fancy having sex with a person who has a dick.
Personally I don’t think it’s a good approach to ask whether you personally are wrong or right for the way you feel, from my perspective it’s a bit of a weird way to approach moral responsibility.
It’s probably better to acknowledge the causes for why you or anyone else would discriminate that way, but to be honest this is not the only kind of preference that we could examine or think has problematic roots.
Are people wrong for not wanting to have sex with someone considered conventionally unattractive? Or what about my example with the amputated breast - would it be wrong to not want to have sex with that person upon realizing they are an amputee?
Even if we acknowledge there is some unfairness or problem with the way we feel, it doesn’t make us not feel those things. Overriding our feelings and carrying through with something we are uncomfortable with seems wrong to me, for example. Especially in the context of sex where consent is so important.
So, I’m not inclined to condemn the individual for their feelings even if they are problematic in some way - we all have problematic feelings, but I am inclined to think we should examine where feelings come from and how society reinforces some feelings and not others, if that makes sense.
The responsibility does not fall 100% on the individual for the way they feel, since individuals do not have perfect control over the way they feel or how their feelings form - they don’t exist in a vacuum where every decision they make is wholly their responsibility.
Instead if we think that discriminating on some basis or another is wrong, we live in a situation where we have to pragmatically acknowledge that people feel this way, and that those feelings aren’t going to go away even if someone acknowledges the feelings are problematic. I also don’t think it’s useful to shout down someone with those feelings even if the feeling comes from a bad place or is wrong in some way.
That said, it’s obvious that some people are more overt in their discriminatory attitudes than others - someone like Andrew Tate who is proudly misogynistic is someone worth individually denouncing since they embrace their discriminatory feelings and promote them in society. But again this is more about the influence on the social norms that are adopted by people - the focus should be on improving social attitudes, rather than policing every individual who is a product of those social attitudes.
Well in my specific case I am looking for someone to have kids with which is a lot different than the other stuff you mentioned which are purely cosmetic. I know you can adopt etc but I’m a narcissist who wants to make miniature rabbers.
yeah, was going to ask the same thing - I think infertility is a great example of an “unexpected” thing that I wouldn’t think should count as a violation, at least not for hooking up. It’s another matter if a person really wants to reproduce and the partner lies or doesn’t disclose they are infertile and leads them along somehow, but that’s not a hookup situation. A hookup is not a suitable context for reproducing, let’s be honest.
That’s one thing, but I was referring to steps before that part. I think these people are horrified of the prospect of being attracted to someone and then finding out they were once biologically male so they simply push to make that prospect impossible. Everyone else suffers so they don’t have to suffer any introspection. :/
Ah sorry no It’s okay I can tell you have good intentions. Gender is a hard thing to talk about because of how multifaceted it is.
Like what I think you meant is finding out that person they are attracted to is a women with a penis. They then experiance internalized transphobia causing them to think they have been deceived into being attracted to a man or ‘biological male’ as penises are strongly associated with men by our societies constructed gender binary. When in reality many women have penises. Just as many men have vulva.
being attracted to someone and then finding out they were once biologically male
Also valid I think. I’m looking for a woman who wants to have kids with me so it would really suck for both parties and I would prefer to avoid that awkward situation altogether. That could end up being straight up traumatic for either person
A lot of people can’t have or don’t want to have children for various reasons or medical issues.
Seems like this problem can just be solved by being upfront that you want to have children? No point in singling out any specific reason when the real issue is that you need someone to have children with. Most people would appreciate you expressing your needs upfront.
I mean isn’t that valid?
If I was hooking up with a girl and she didn’t disclose that and she took off her clothes I would feel so violated
I doubt this ever really happens though
I’m not sure that in a society that isn’t homophobic and transphobic that this would be as much of a problem as we think. Would it be acceptable to be upset if the girl you were hooking up with took off her clothes and you find out she had some other kind of situation she didn’t disclose? I can imagine many different situations, like:
You can think of more examples I’m sure. If you really think a trans woman is a woman, I don’t think their genitals being in one configuration is that different than these sorts of examples - it’s just another unexpected thing.
I think part of what makes it feel like a violation, esp. to so many cis straight men, is that the attitudes about genitals are so essentialized, it’s often hard for a cis straight man (and people in general) to think the penis isn’t “male” at least in some sense, and so on a trans woman a penis requires special consent and disclosure that we might not demand of other conditions.
Should someone feel violated if anything else is not what they expected on a woman’s body? Why is being trans special or different?
All that said, we do live in a society - so disclosing seems like a good idea for so many reasons. My questions aren’t meant to lead people to take risks, but to create clarity about why these practices of disclosure are necessary in the first place.
I wouldn’t feel violated if the person I was hitting on turned out to have a dick, but I wouldn’t have interest in having sex with that person because well I don’t fancy having sex with a person who has a dick.
Am I wrong in thinking this?
Personally I don’t think it’s a good approach to ask whether you personally are wrong or right for the way you feel, from my perspective it’s a bit of a weird way to approach moral responsibility.
It’s probably better to acknowledge the causes for why you or anyone else would discriminate that way, but to be honest this is not the only kind of preference that we could examine or think has problematic roots.
Are people wrong for not wanting to have sex with someone considered conventionally unattractive? Or what about my example with the amputated breast - would it be wrong to not want to have sex with that person upon realizing they are an amputee?
Even if we acknowledge there is some unfairness or problem with the way we feel, it doesn’t make us not feel those things. Overriding our feelings and carrying through with something we are uncomfortable with seems wrong to me, for example. Especially in the context of sex where consent is so important.
So, I’m not inclined to condemn the individual for their feelings even if they are problematic in some way - we all have problematic feelings, but I am inclined to think we should examine where feelings come from and how society reinforces some feelings and not others, if that makes sense.
The responsibility does not fall 100% on the individual for the way they feel, since individuals do not have perfect control over the way they feel or how their feelings form - they don’t exist in a vacuum where every decision they make is wholly their responsibility.
Instead if we think that discriminating on some basis or another is wrong, we live in a situation where we have to pragmatically acknowledge that people feel this way, and that those feelings aren’t going to go away even if someone acknowledges the feelings are problematic. I also don’t think it’s useful to shout down someone with those feelings even if the feeling comes from a bad place or is wrong in some way.
That said, it’s obvious that some people are more overt in their discriminatory attitudes than others - someone like Andrew Tate who is proudly misogynistic is someone worth individually denouncing since they embrace their discriminatory feelings and promote them in society. But again this is more about the influence on the social norms that are adopted by people - the focus should be on improving social attitudes, rather than policing every individual who is a product of those social attitudes.
Well in my specific case I am looking for someone to have kids with which is a lot different than the other stuff you mentioned which are purely cosmetic. I know you can adopt etc but I’m a narcissist who wants to make miniature rabbers.
would you feel “violated” if the woman you date looks totally normal, but is actually infertile?
yeah, was going to ask the same thing - I think infertility is a great example of an “unexpected” thing that I wouldn’t think should count as a violation, at least not for hooking up. It’s another matter if a person really wants to reproduce and the partner lies or doesn’t disclose they are infertile and leads them along somehow, but that’s not a hookup situation. A hookup is not a suitable context for reproducing, let’s be honest.
That’s one thing, but I was referring to steps before that part. I think these people are horrified of the prospect of being attracted to someone and then finding out they were once biologically male so they simply push to make that prospect impossible. Everyone else suffers so they don’t have to suffer any introspection. :/
I know you’re probably not intending this but biological <gender> is so damn transphobic. I’m biologically a trans women. I was born this way.
Sorry! I really don’t know how to properly express these things correctly. This is the first time I’m seeing it discussed in that way though.
Ah sorry no It’s okay I can tell you have good intentions. Gender is a hard thing to talk about because of how multifaceted it is.
Like what I think you meant is finding out that person they are attracted to is a women with a penis. They then experiance internalized transphobia causing them to think they have been deceived into being attracted to a man or ‘biological male’ as penises are strongly associated with men by our societies constructed gender binary. When in reality many women have penises. Just as many men have vulva.
Also valid I think. I’m looking for a woman who wants to have kids with me so it would really suck for both parties and I would prefer to avoid that awkward situation altogether. That could end up being straight up traumatic for either person
A lot of people can’t have or don’t want to have children for various reasons or medical issues.
Seems like this problem can just be solved by being upfront that you want to have children? No point in singling out any specific reason when the real issue is that you need someone to have children with. Most people would appreciate you expressing your needs upfront.
I mean that sounds good on paper but saying you want to have children in the initial stage of a relationship is probably a red flag lol
So is feeling violated at someone not telling you beforehand they’re trans. I’d feel a lot worse with you doing that than asking if I’m fertile.