I see your point and don’t disagree exactly… but…
I will say it is odd that I hear this kind of criticism of flat gay/female/minority/etc characters but for some reason never hear complaints about the equally-flatly written comic relief characters, or best friend characters, or sage characters, etc. Video games and other stories frequently contain flat characters that are used more as props for the protagonist or other characters to react and respond to, yet complaints about these characters seem to only pop up when said characters happen to represent an under-represented demographic.
The issue is the intention behind it, if the intention is comic relief they might not add much to the plot, but generally are still relevant in some way and make the film more entertaining
I’m not a huge fan of poorly fleshed out characters in general if they’ve got any amount of screen time
If they haven’t got much screen time and aren’t fleshed out it’s even worse if the one defining character trait they have is that they’re gay, black, trans, etc etc
Imagine if some adventurers go into a tavern, they talk to the generic hooded loner on their own in the corner, they give the adventurers the quest as usual and then for some reason mention that they’re vegan or something, no relevance to the story and it becomes kinda obvious to the viewer that they were only given that character trait to check a box
Kaos is one of the good examples I’ve seen recently sorry if I already mentioned it, there’s a trans character in the underworld who was part of a female only Amazon tribe and was thrown out and eventually killed for transitioning to male, but they don’t even mention any of that until he’s already been well established for a couple of episodes and they do it in enough detail that it doesn’t feel forced
I’m all for representation in media I should clarify I just want it to be done well, there are a fair few good examples but also a good number of bad ones
That’s fair and I see your point, even basically agree with it. That said, I still wonder sort of what standards we’re holding for “good” characters and how realistic that is. And I want to make a brief caveat that I don’t know you and can’t speak to your personal opinions so I will be making some generalizations about the topic in general; I apologize if it feels like I am unfairly lumping you in with anyone and promise that is not my intention. It is clear to me you aren’t a right wing chud screaming about DEI but rather you’re a very decent person looking for fleshed-out representation that isn’t shallow or driven by stereotypes.
Okay, caveats out of the way now, here’s the thing: I have a gay friend who is very proud of their community and themselves for being who they are despite any social pressures. This friend frequently goes out wearing full-blown rainbow attire, speaks with the affectation of their community, and they will absolutely inform you of their orientation upon their first meeting. Of course my friend has vastly more depth than just their community affiliation, but that affiliation is definitely going to be the largest and most prominent quality you associate with them, especially if you never move beyond acquaintanceship to friendship.
If my friend was in a video game, they would absolutely be described as flat or tokenism. But they are a real person. Even if you’re thinking to yourself right now “well frankly it sounds like your friend is lacking in depth in real life,” (I’d disagree, but go with the argument none the less, please), the fact is they still exist. There are people who define themselves by their identifiers first. So I don’t think the mere inclusion of these “flat” representations are inherently problematic.
I don’t think a flat character of an under-represented demographic is harmful in the way that a bad or stereotypical representation is. I think there is still benefit in the normalization of lesser-represented groups in media, even if those representations aren’t the deepest or most compelling characters. A gay shopkeeper who is flamboyant and one-note still helps normalize the idea of gay people in normal aspects of life.
But of course we can’t settle for these characters as the whole piece of representation. We have to still demand deep and complex under-represented characters, especially in lead or primary roles. I just personally don’t think the flatter characters are inherently problematic or detrimental to those goal. If anything, I think they’re almost kind of tangential or non-sequitur to the topic. The point isn’t to complain about flat under-represented characters and discourage their inclusion, the point is to demand good and complex under-represented characters regardless of the inclusion of these flat other representations.
I’m very sorry for the novel I wrote, my brain is crazy today and I couldn’t make it more concise in this moment.
Also I have no yet watched Kaos so I can’t comment on the representation in that show, but it does sound compelling from what you describe.
Also also, in case it’s not clear, I don’t think we’re arguing; I think we probably agree with each other about 90% of the way here.
I’m not sure real people can be compared to fictional in that way, as your friend has infinitely more character because he’s a real person
If you were to ask your friend what his favourite food is, or what his opinion on pineapple on pizza is, or what he has for a desktop wallpaper he’d have answers for all of those questions or a reason he doesn’t have an answer
If you were to take one of these hollow characters I’m talking about and ask them that question the answer would just be made up on the spot
If your friend showed up in a TV show for 5 minutes just as himself in a situation he would realistically be in I can guarantee he’d feel real and natural because he is a real person with a history
I see your point and don’t disagree exactly… but…
I will say it is odd that I hear this kind of criticism of flat gay/female/minority/etc characters but for some reason never hear complaints about the equally-flatly written comic relief characters, or best friend characters, or sage characters, etc. Video games and other stories frequently contain flat characters that are used more as props for the protagonist or other characters to react and respond to, yet complaints about these characters seem to only pop up when said characters happen to represent an under-represented demographic.
The issue is the intention behind it, if the intention is comic relief they might not add much to the plot, but generally are still relevant in some way and make the film more entertaining
I’m not a huge fan of poorly fleshed out characters in general if they’ve got any amount of screen time
If they haven’t got much screen time and aren’t fleshed out it’s even worse if the one defining character trait they have is that they’re gay, black, trans, etc etc
Imagine if some adventurers go into a tavern, they talk to the generic hooded loner on their own in the corner, they give the adventurers the quest as usual and then for some reason mention that they’re vegan or something, no relevance to the story and it becomes kinda obvious to the viewer that they were only given that character trait to check a box
Kaos is one of the good examples I’ve seen recently sorry if I already mentioned it, there’s a trans character in the underworld who was part of a female only Amazon tribe and was thrown out and eventually killed for transitioning to male, but they don’t even mention any of that until he’s already been well established for a couple of episodes and they do it in enough detail that it doesn’t feel forced
I’m all for representation in media I should clarify I just want it to be done well, there are a fair few good examples but also a good number of bad ones
That’s fair and I see your point, even basically agree with it. That said, I still wonder sort of what standards we’re holding for “good” characters and how realistic that is. And I want to make a brief caveat that I don’t know you and can’t speak to your personal opinions so I will be making some generalizations about the topic in general; I apologize if it feels like I am unfairly lumping you in with anyone and promise that is not my intention. It is clear to me you aren’t a right wing chud screaming about DEI but rather you’re a very decent person looking for fleshed-out representation that isn’t shallow or driven by stereotypes.
Okay, caveats out of the way now, here’s the thing: I have a gay friend who is very proud of their community and themselves for being who they are despite any social pressures. This friend frequently goes out wearing full-blown rainbow attire, speaks with the affectation of their community, and they will absolutely inform you of their orientation upon their first meeting. Of course my friend has vastly more depth than just their community affiliation, but that affiliation is definitely going to be the largest and most prominent quality you associate with them, especially if you never move beyond acquaintanceship to friendship.
If my friend was in a video game, they would absolutely be described as flat or tokenism. But they are a real person. Even if you’re thinking to yourself right now “well frankly it sounds like your friend is lacking in depth in real life,” (I’d disagree, but go with the argument none the less, please), the fact is they still exist. There are people who define themselves by their identifiers first. So I don’t think the mere inclusion of these “flat” representations are inherently problematic.
I don’t think a flat character of an under-represented demographic is harmful in the way that a bad or stereotypical representation is. I think there is still benefit in the normalization of lesser-represented groups in media, even if those representations aren’t the deepest or most compelling characters. A gay shopkeeper who is flamboyant and one-note still helps normalize the idea of gay people in normal aspects of life.
But of course we can’t settle for these characters as the whole piece of representation. We have to still demand deep and complex under-represented characters, especially in lead or primary roles. I just personally don’t think the flatter characters are inherently problematic or detrimental to those goal. If anything, I think they’re almost kind of tangential or non-sequitur to the topic. The point isn’t to complain about flat under-represented characters and discourage their inclusion, the point is to demand good and complex under-represented characters regardless of the inclusion of these flat other representations.
I’m very sorry for the novel I wrote, my brain is crazy today and I couldn’t make it more concise in this moment.
Also I have no yet watched Kaos so I can’t comment on the representation in that show, but it does sound compelling from what you describe.
Also also, in case it’s not clear, I don’t think we’re arguing; I think we probably agree with each other about 90% of the way here.
Does seem that way
I’m not sure real people can be compared to fictional in that way, as your friend has infinitely more character because he’s a real person
If you were to ask your friend what his favourite food is, or what his opinion on pineapple on pizza is, or what he has for a desktop wallpaper he’d have answers for all of those questions or a reason he doesn’t have an answer
If you were to take one of these hollow characters I’m talking about and ask them that question the answer would just be made up on the spot
If your friend showed up in a TV show for 5 minutes just as himself in a situation he would realistically be in I can guarantee he’d feel real and natural because he is a real person with a history